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Ask Wynford Dore: The Ten Answers

Wynford Dore of the Dore Achievement Centres has responded to the ten questions sent by you the readers.

1) What is the success rate of the treatment? I’ve heard you claim to cure over 90% of people. Does this figure include everyone who comes in for an assessment or only those who complete a year or more of the treatment?

It is only possible to measure the success of a treatment if someone completes the whole prescribed programme.  Our figures show that more than 90% who complete the Dore Programme show a very substantial improvement in their symptoms.  The question mentions the word “cure”  -  you will notice that we never make mention of this in our literature although recently professors carrying out independent research have quite openly used the word to describe the results we are getting with ADHD and the underlying cause of dyslexia. 

2) By claiming dyslexia is personal problem that can be cured are you not devaluing the impact dyslexia has on people’s lives? Doesn’t this just put the blame on the dyslexic for not getting cured?

The popular perception for many is that dyslexia is a gift.  Science as we now understand it which explains the symptoms doesn’t support this view.  Conversely it shows that under-development of the cerebellum constrains the ability of the individual to use all the power of their creative thinking brain.  Thus those who complete our programme have, to our knowledge, never observed any reduction or increase in their creative ability but very substantial improvement in their ability to take information in, retain it and recall it.  Thus our conclusion is that dyslexic and other symptoms of learning difficulties are an impediment  -  when the symptoms are removed their effectiveness and quality of life improves.  We have never had a client that has disagreed with this view to our knowledge. 

 
3) Recently Kenny Logan and Toyah Wilcox have spoken out in support of your treatment programme? What is the financial relationship between them and Dore? Were they paid to go on the programme or did they pay as a normal customer? Are any other celebrities trying Dore?

Both Kenny Logan and Toyah Wilcox came on the programme as ordinary customers  -  when they saw the enormous nature of the improvements in their lives they simply wanted to share it with others.  Their desire is genuine, in both cases they did not enjoy the experience of school despite having great gifts as individuals.  Now they have been freed of the constraints of learning difficulties the quality of their lives has improved dramatically.  A very high proportion of our clients whether celebrities or not are so thrilled with what they see they will do anything to help spread the world.  Other celebrities have and are using the Dore Programme but we would not divulge this until they choose to do so themselves.

4) For some people your system does not work. What have you done to assess and mitigate the psychological impact of a failed treatment on children to whom you have claimed to be able to treat? What advice on other treatments do you give to those for whom the treatment fails?

It is actually very rare that the programme doesn’t work  -  especially if someone completes the programme.  Whenever this is the case we have a full investigation as to what causes it.  The most common cause is that it really is not easy for some families to find the time to ensure that the exercises are done on a regular basis.  We are very well aware of the potential impact of disappointing a child and we are very careful before we take someone on to the programme to make sure that physiologically it is very likely that we will get a positive result. 

With regard to the other treatments that you ask about, I am not aware of any treatments designed to deal specifically with cerebellar developmental delay.

 
5) Many dyslexics demonstrate great ability at balance and hand / eye coordination through their achievements in sports and art. How can the cerebellum be the causes of dyslexia when their cerebellum is clearly working correctly?

This is a very interesting question.  We have had a large number of sportsmen, including gymnasts, who were amazed to find that their balance strategies are far from complete when tested.  Many sports rely on a high level of samatosensory input and hardly requires any vestibular input.  The poor development of the cerebellum is often associated with poor use of vestibular sensory information and this is partly what we work on in our programme.  In fact many sportsmen have reported dramatic improvements in their sporting abilities, their ability to concentrate for long periods, their co-ordination ability is significantly improved after having gone through the programme.  It is also appropriate to point out that different parts of the cerebellum are usually developed to a different extent and of course different parts deal with different aspects of the process of learning and co-ordination.  It is quite feasible for someone to have a high level of learning skills in one area but be weak in others.  This explains the enormous variation in the combination of symptoms that people experience.

 
6) You claim the cerebellum is the root of all dyslexia problems. Are you saying that all the research ever done on dyslexia is rubbish and that all other treatments do not work?

You will notice that we don’t at all criticise the work of others  -  we simply focus on trying to solve the problem.  What we know is that we have a programme that is highly effective and reliable with no down side risks.  Up until recently the cerebellum was not usually studied in any of the brain scan research work in dyslexia.  A current project being worked on with the fMRI unit at London University in Queens Square is very exciting indeed.  They have found a direct correlation between density of grey matter in a specific area of the cerebellum and ability to read and spell  -  this research is in the process of being written up for publication now and will open quite a few eyes very wide indeed!

 
7) You have made lots of claims as to the nature and success rate of the treatment. What research has been done by independent scientists and in what peer-reviewed journal has it been published

Our first research paper was peer reviewed and published in Dyslexia in February 2003 and other research is in the process of being peer reviewed at the time of writing.  Other completely independent studies are being carried out by a number of Education Authorities, all with remarkably similar results.

 
8) Why, if it is as successful as you claim, it is not offered to all schools?

Another very interesting question.  Our mission is to get this to everyone whether or not they can afford it.  What we are focussed on in developing this programme is the reverse of what would be done were we trying to create a commercially successful organisation.  We have worked very hard to drive down the cost of the programme so that it is affordable by as many as possible but ultimately we are working on persuading governments to provide this as part of the education process in schools.  The number of people affected is enormous  -  probably one in six  -  and in this society we expect the Government to pay wherever there is an educational medical need.  This falls absolutely into those categories.  Getting governments to listed of course is a challenging problem.  We have conducted a large amount of lobbying and will continue to do so until we get the desired result.

9) The Cost…
9a) The treatment is very expensive, more than $3000 (£2000). Why does it cost so much and what refunds do you offer if it doesn’t work? 

We have subsidised everybody who has gone through the programme around the world  -  had we charged the full cost of providing this service folk would have had to pay substantially more than they have up until now.  If the similar tests were conducted at a private hospital to those we carry out it would cost in excess of £5,000, just for the tests alone.  The best yardstick as to whether or not it is expensive is by the clients who look at the results when they have completed the programme. The typical feedback we get is “I would have paid ten times as much if I realised you were going to change my child to this extent”.  Another yardstick to consider is how much people will spend on braces for teeth, one to one tuition, and so on.  If you think about all the educational, emotional and behavioural changes that are achieved by our programme it is remarkably good value.  In fact, if people complete our programme properly and don’t achieve the physiological changes normally observed we would be quite happy to fully refund the full cost.

9b) Given the success of legal action in forcing the NHS to prescribe expensive and non-approved drugs, do you think there is scope for legal action to force schools to pay for the treatment? 
Another very interesting question indeed  -  you have just given me an idea!  Governments soon will realise that its not only appropriate to provide this treatment because of the improvement in quality of life but at the economic level it makes absolute common sense too.  If anyone wants to start legal action we would gladly provide them the scientific evidence to support their case.  Folk ought to also bear in mind  that a Disability Living Allowance is normally appropriate for folk with learning difficulties  -  this is often enough to cover the cost of the programme.  We are also getting an increasing number of cases where Local Education Authorities and Job Centres will consider funding requests.

9c) We cannot afford the Dore programme, Are there any charities that will assist us? 

As a Dad is really hurts me that some simply cannot afford the programme and I can’t wait for the day when funding will be available for all.  Meanwhile we have just established the Dore Foundation with two very clear intentions  –

Firstly to conduct further scientific research into the cerebellum and the impact it can have on all sorts of conditions  -  not just learning difficulties.

The second intention is that when it has spare funding it will make that available to subsidise or completely pay for those who can’t afford it.  It maybe of interest to your readers to note that when we first started research into this the intention was that we would put all the funding through a charity.  Because the risks we were taking were far greater than could be justified or would be supported by the establishment it is unlikely that had we tried to do it through a charity we would have been able to have thrown enough money to this to get the results we are now getting.  We therefore took the alternative route to fund it through a commercial company that was funded by me personally to the tune of many millions of pounds  -  and still is.  It has, therefore, been a “charitable cause” even though it has been through the vehicle of a commercial organisation. 

 
9d) I’m writing on behalf of my partner who is desperate to find help and feels like his dyslexia is always holding him back. As you will appreciate it can be very depressing for us both. Unfortunately we cannot afford your treatment. From a personal point of view what else could we try? 
My suggestions would be that they should consider getting Disability Living Allowance  -  we have some useful paperwork that might help with the completion of these forms. Secondly it would be worth asking their local Area Health Authority if they would consider funding the treatment  -  after all, cerebellar developmental delay is a condition we can prove using neurological tests.

10) A great deal has been made about the treatment programme being created to help your daughter. When did she do the programme and what were the effects? 

Susie was, indeed, our first guinea pig and, therefore, started the programme during early 2000.  Of all the people we have helped, Susie probably had some of the most serious conditions.  She has gone from not being able to read to reading constantly, her concentration has gone from almost zero to endless, she could not write a sentence before whereas now she can effortless write pages, her ability to maintain eye contact and develop a conversation was negligible  -  now you can’t shut her up!  She could hardly speak to you on a one to one basis whereas now she will confidently address hundreds of people at a time.  She was completely unable to hold a job down for more than a few weeks  -  she has now been in the same job for some three years.  Most importantly of all she was desperately depressed and unhappy  -  now she seems emotionally bomb-proof, thus as a Dad I used to worry about her endlessly  -  now I know she can and will cope with life.

56 Comments

  1. Pauline Riley-Hunte

    I’ve sent a couple of emails re the possibility of a DORE centre being set up in Barbados. Someone responded today (No name attached)and said they had forwarded the email to Mr. Dore, we are excited by this and eagerly await his response, However as we do not know who sent the email we are hoping this one gets through. The more we read the more we are desperate to have the progam here so our children and adults can all benefit from an improved qualit of life. If you receive this email Mr Dore please respond. This is a genuine request.

    Thank YOu.

  2. Julie Carpenter

    Are there any treatment centers in the United States? Also, can the exercises be done at home if taught to an individual through being told what to do or reading the exercises in a book?

  3. Lucy

    Yes, there is a dore centre in Edinburgh. Check out http://www.dore.co.uk. Also, to clear up some confusion with the exercised, they are done at home, twice a day, but these exercised are individual to each person and to each day, so there is no way that they could be taught on a one-off basis and completed entirely independently of the programme. Every 6 weeks, clients come back to the centre and are tested on eye tracking and balance, and on the basis of this information and how difficult the previous exercises were found, a new exercise book is generated. This is why dore is unable to just publish the exercises in a book for those unable to afford the programme, as they would not be individualised enough to make a significant impact.

  4. Terry Casey

    Hi

    Me and my son have spent over 20 months on the DORE program.
    It has not helped either of us one bit.
    My son is still reversing his letters and numbers.
    I am trying to get my money back but Dore does not want to know.
    Be very careful with these people!
    Any questions – email me tm.casey@ntlworld.com

  5. Eddie

    Dore provides an individualised programme and claims this is important. What is the evidence for this and given the understanding of the cerebellum, how can exercises be developed to affect particular functions? It all seems made up to me,

  6. Hunky DOREy?

    You have good reason to be suspicious. Mis-management is a bigger problem than the marketing. Each US center I found out has gone through managers including marketing managers like water. The turnover there is high. Look at how many of DORE’s own staff, technicians, sales people and even the TOP mananagement have gone through program. NOT MANY! Investigate how many people have registered and COMPLETED the program. The completion rate is very low! I talked to a woman who trains in Colorado, very curt and nasty. This is not to mention the rumors of racist and sexist comments from a female there.

    The people mentioned as celebrities are on paid staff. Research is conducted by DORE affiliates or programs DORE has an interest in. Not completely unaffiliated or independent.

    My bet would be on other programs and NOT the turmoil at DORE.

  7. Glenn

    There is no proof that the celebrities are paid staff!! I personally after speaking to one would say they are not. Scott Quinnell is and has been the president for the Welsh Dylexia Project for 5 years(a charity). What possible reason one he have to come out and endorse a product that hasn’t worked for him.

  8. Lorie

    What has happened to Western Civilization when the label of racist, sexist, rude, mean, or even “poorly managed” are seen as a legitimate arguments to a scientific discovery? Illogical.

    Jonas Salk could have been all the above and who would care?

    Completion rate is a legitimate issue. However, people with ADD rarely complete anything. I am too skinny to take ADD meds. This is largely due to the fact I can rarely even complete my dinner. (I’ve gotten up to run around the room about 20 times during this post too.)

    Dore cannot afford to simply give away their methods to be “Independently” tested. Research costs millions. If the money is not recouped in sales, there can be no more research. It is that simple.

    Even if they did- how could we know the procedures were performed correctly and the testing was valid?

    There is a vested interest in keeping people dysfunctional -especially in welfare states- this must not be overlooked.

    Science has become very dogmatic and unscientific on several fronts, because if advances/discoveries are made entire degrees and careers may be rendered obsolete.

    Character assassination has become the modern equivalent of burning at the stake.

    “It didn’t work for me.” I can sympathize. Nothing works for me either.
    But, Dore testimonials FOR the program are rejected too for the same reason those against should be dismissed. One or two case studies do not science make.

    Can anyone direct me to a serious, cold, hard, logical, and factual discussion on the net of the Dore method?

    I have seen good results achieved by the NILD here in the states. I have read quite a bit on neuroplasticity. I basically understand the philosophy behind the treatment and tend to agree with it.

    But I would like to hear some VALID arguments AGAINST the method before I plunk down $4,700. (a huge sum for the lower middle class here.)

    By the way, in the states, the cost for testing and medication is $2,640 the first year and $1,340 every year thereafter-assuming no inflation.

    It seems clear to me which treatment is more expensive and who is the real money maker here.

    At this point, I am willing to try anything -even snake oil. Perhaps if I apply it while balancing on a wobble board and reciting the preamble to the constitution.. .

  9. Matt Francis

    This program is a scam. Do your OWN research on this–informed scientific and medical opinion is that this “treatment” has no basis, other than separating desperate, gullible parents from their money. It is sad, really, but scam merchants come along all the time. Beware!

  10. eraina brien

    matt, you talk absolute nonsense. if the programme hasnt worked for you i would be interested to see your compliance levels..your only kidding yourself if the exercises wernt done…medical opinion will always be againest anything ‘alternative’ especially when multi milion pound pharmacutical companies stand to lose thousands/millions..the whole industry that feeds off childrens diabilities stands to lose out so of course they wont endorse it. myy son completed the programme …he’s like a different child!!! GO DORE!!!!!!!…

    or prehaps you havnt done the programme matt, so you just dont know what your talking about?

  11. Phil Sexton

    So many idots on here, some I suspect are people who are offering different (i.e copycat) programs, others either haven’t completed the course or not even done it because they too lazy or can’t be bothered? After all the independant (scientists not paid by DORE) results and personal reccomdations I have received when properly researching this matter, I came to the conclusion that I must try it. I am now one week in and struggling a little with the exercise’s but I shall overcome this and continue to complete the course. Ignore all the idiots writing on here in their very spiteful and nasty manner, if it can change your life for a couple of thousand, it’s gotta be worth a go. Also for any none UK readers the stars they mention (Toyah Wilcox and the 2 Rugby stars) are all very famous people in the UK and are not likely to be liars or on the pay line and Toyah’s Dyslexia has been known about in the public for several years now and to hear she no longer has it would be enough for me to give this a go really, but as I said, I also have friends who have completed the course succesfully and find this imature behaviour of some of the people on here stupid, nasty and child-like!

    It sounds to me like these are the people that need to be on the course but are too lazy to do anything about it and these people should be ignored as they are too moronic to actually see how they are acting.

  12. I have twin boys age 7 both of whom suffer with dyslexia. They have both been on the programe for 7 weeks now. Throughout their lives they have always been on the same level – in every aspect of life. From they have started the dore programme one of the boys is starting to show real improvements already in this short space of time, the other twin however is not showing the same improvements, infact he is showing a bit of aggressive behaviour. They have always been very well behaved children to the point were people would comment on their manners and good behaviour. I have been told by a mother of another child who done the programme that this is a side effect of the programme? He is not rude – just silly and loud!! Has anyone else ever heard of this?

    I do feel that anything to help improve their dyslexia is worth trying however you have to put 110% into doing the exercises otherwise you cannot fairly comment on if it really works or not. I do not know enough about the scientific evidence of dyslexia but this I do know; living with children who are slow to learn, who by the age of 7 still do not know the days of the week, months of the year, alphabet numbers etc who are so far behind in class that they just shut down and do not want to try to learn is totally heartbreaking. So I say this to the critics – who else is out there trying to find a cure for this condition? Who else is giving us desperate parents hope. I have not been given any guarantee by the Dore people that this will work for my children especially as they were born 7 weeks early, but I have been offered hope and at the moment I am seeing a little light at the end of the tunnel and I feel I am doing something towards helping them. As for the cost of the programme – if you go private for any medical problem nowadays it cost thousands! Even for simple operations that only take 2 hours!

    Anyway I pray to God we will get a good outcome for the boys and would be interested in hearing from anyone else who has twins on the programme.

    Thank you to Dore for at least for now giving use hope – more than our education board can give to our Kids!

  13. Deborah

    My daughter has been on the Dore programme since June and is making astounding progress. In june her spelling age was 7yrs 10mths (she was 9yrs 10mths old. In Sept. it had risen to 10yrs 3mths.(2mths above her actual age. She has moved up 3 reading levels and her school work is improving all the time. Most importantly she is now happy and no longer tells me that she wants to die. Is Dore worth the money? YES! YES! YES!
    To all you people making negative comments about Dore, think of the harm you could be doing. If I had listened to people like you my daughter would still be desperately unhappy and telling me she doesn’t want to live anymore.Thanks wynford, you have changed our lives already in such a short time. The future looks very bright.

  14. Hi, As an employee of dore, in the uk, i have a few points to make, when i first started i was amazed by what i was being told and informed about what “WE” do as a company, i was very passionate, a bit sceptical but passionate, bow it is a year on and the many many changes we have seen and gone through one thing is clear to me “MONEY” is everything to the managment, Wynford Dore is not geared around money, it is the senseless individuals who he employs that are the criminals here, DORe does help and we do have the research and proof it does, however what every person needs to know is it will cost you over £2000 to achieve this, thats the bottom line, the sales people will emotionally black mail you into coming on to the programme it is very hard sales orientated. you get a free home visit, hahahahah thats a joke, it aint free you get bullied into coming on to the programme, unless you are wiling to pay 2 grand dont get in contact,

    an honest statement by me, and no im not a sales person for dore nor do i earn commision.

    Thanks for reading……………..

  15. Deborah

    You are so wrong. At no time was I emotionally blackmailed by the wonderful “salesman” that came to my home. There was no hard sell and he still keeps in touch and takes a genuine interest in my daughters progress. £2000 might sound like a lot of money but you can’t put a price on your childs future happiness.The Dore programme works!
    As an employee of Dore you should be ashamed of yourself. You could be putting people off and denying children the future they deserve. All the Dore employees I have met have been warm and friendly and caring. You obviously don’t belong there. I suggest you find yourself a new job.

  16. Truth

    Maybe you should read the press today. Even their sales people aren’t happy with it. They mock a female manager who has disability’s both physicly and sexualy. It looks like they are no better than these mirical bed companys. Sure it has worked for a few but are they bothered? As long as they can make money they seem happy. Lets face it this guy is a millionare business man. Whats in it for him?

  17. Deborah

    I’ll tell you whats in it for him. His daughter tried to kill herself and he saved her life with the programme. He has now dedicated his life to helping other people in the same situation. My daughter wanted to kill herself at the age of 9 because of her learning difficulties but having been on the programme she is now happy and full of confidence. There are good and bad people in all walks of life. The people you are referring to are individuals who behaved badly. Dore as a company are not to blame. Wynford and the majority of the Dore staff are wonderful, caring individuals and without them I might have lost my daughter. Thankyou Wynford you’re a star.

  18. Sarah Johns

    I am just amazed at any comments which are made about people competing and putting treatments down, especially Dore. Just remember the people who matter here, the ones who struggle. I nearly killed myself due to dyspraxia and I now work with people with similar conditions. I don’t care about money, I care about people feeling better about themselves. Please care about what matters and don’t worry about petty arguments between adults who should know better. If I won the lottery I would set up a place where people come to be helped with their difficulties, full stop. There wouldn’t be any discussion about whether it works or not. It would be tailored to every individual and every would have something to offer.

  19. randall

    Mr. Dore says he will refund the money paid by those who the program didn’t help, How does one go about getting a refund? My son has been on this program for a year and we have seen no changes in him. He hates the exercises and this has become a daily battle within our family. I’m beginning to think that I’ve flushed $5000 US. To make matters worse, GE Money Bank (the collectors who Dore contracts with here in the US) have just charged me an additional $650 because I didn’t pay off the entire loan in one year. This Dore thing is just becomming a nightmare. I did ask about a refund and I was told that there are none, so this information is contrary to what’s printed on this website. Again, how does one get a refund? RS

  20. eraina

    Try contacting your Dore centre. Refunds are given but the cicumstances are individual. You really need to speak to your centre manager not someone on the internet.

  21. randall

    I only tried this vehicle because the centre manager already told me “no,” but I can now see that this is contrary to what I see here. I thought someone might have some useful insight. RS

  22. Christopher Fernandez

    I’ve read all the comments on this website. 1/2 good, 1/2 bad comments about Dore. I’m dyslexic and have an attention deficit disorder. I’m hoping to go through this program. I have had a hard time in life at a young age and my parents just found out about my disorder. (I’m 24) If it cost so much money as most people say and it works for me, I would say, it’s worth it just to change my life for the better. I’m praying the Dore is the key to helping my dyslexia and ADD.

  23. randall

    Does anybody know where in the USA is Dore’s head office, or who I might speak to there? I sent an email and I was contacted by somebody named Lynn (I think) from the Phoenix office. She’s the one who said that there are no refunds, which is contrary to what I see here. Is it possible to reach Mr. Dore himself? I did read his book and I believe in the program, but it doesn’t help everybody and I think my son is one of those. I don’t even believe that my son’s issues are related to the cerebellum, but maybe to other low functioning parts of his brain. Maybe his initial diagnosis was faulty. Again, I appreciete those of you who have responded to my posts. RS

  24. FrazzleDazzle

    Randall, I am in the USA, also in Phoenix. Lynn was one of our wonderful program specialists. Eraina is correct in saying that refunds are given under individual consideration. If you look at the back of your contract it should be there.

    If the participant has shown on their assessments improvment, then it would be hard to justify, and would be even more reason to continue on, as the neurological results are there, just not the manifestations and transference yet.

    Also, it may be hard to really tell if there are results. If I had not had benchmark tests from the school, I would not have noticed the jump in his reading/comprehension/fluency, which was a very concerning issue I had hoped Dore would help my son with. Also, he has ADHD, and the executive functions were a concern, but here at over a year into the program, actually the week of completion phase appointment, some traits of improved executive functioning are really rearing in many ways. But, I have to admit, that things were quiet for quite a while.

    what I am saying, Randall, bottom line, is that improvements sneak in and can be easy to miss, especially if you do not have any benchmarks to bo by, or he has not completed the program. I trly had my doubts as well, but it seems here at the end (and I understand well into a year post-completion) the neurological adaptations and development kick in and continue on. It is reallye exciting to see and watch when they do. I encourage you to keep it up, if you do, one day you will see something out of your child you never thought possible.

    By the way, we hated the whole thing too. We are both really glad it’s over.

    Wishing you the best, Randal. 🙂

  25. randall

    Frazzle- Hi. How old is your son? How long did you do this program before you finished? We’re now at about 1 year. It would have been 14 months but we were out of the country for the summer and we couldn’t do the exercises while backpacking through Africa- just too complicated. So, as I said, discounting those 2 months, were now at the 1-year point. The contract says 15 months on the average. I’d like Matt to continue up til the end of May at least (the 15 month mark), but it’s a battle. I still don’t see any improvement anywhere. His grades and his ability to focus are still poor. and his social skills as well. But, as I mentioned in my earlier post, these are not really cerebellum functions. I’m wondering whether his initial assessment was right. He really doesn’t have reading problems or dyslexia. Thanks for your post. Randall.

  26. eraina

    randell…if you have had a break of 2mths I imagine you have maybe set the programme back at least SIX months! regarding a refund (i dont work for dore but i am summising) I dont imagine you would be eligible because you havnt completed the programme as prescribed, a two month break is a MAJOR thing in this kind of treatment (we had 5 days off whilst J was in hospital and it set him right back).
    Can I ask what symptoms your son has for you to start with Dore initially?
    2 mths in AFrica? *jealous* xx

  27. randall

    Eraina- My son will NOT want to know that a 2-month break will set us back 6 months! Actually, I’m not pleased to hear it either. Nobody at Dore has told me this. Do you know this to be a fact or is this just your personal experience? Matt’s symptoms are numerous (see previous posts), but dyslexia was not one of them. Matt used to be a very good reader. Now he’s an average reader. The thing is is that he has not developed the love of reading that his sister and I have. Reading doesn’t turn him on, nor does much of anything else. What he does like is WWE wrestling, play station, and looking at porn on the net. I suppose that this might be typical for most teenage boys. So, his greades have been above average to average while in middle school and now his grades are below average in high school. He doesn’t grasp abstract concepts that are necessary in classes like algebra which he can not seem to pass no matter how much extra help we get him. He can’t focus, his retention is minimal, and every day my wife or I have to sit with him to help get him through his homework. His doctor suggested meds which we oppose. We’ve tried natural alternatives that have not helped either. He’s extremely conscious of his appearance and goes out of his way to look good (or he thinks he looks good) again, another teenage thing, but I’d like to see him spend the same time on his homework that he spends in front of the mirror. For all this hard work, he seems to have few friends. He’s on his cell phone alot and he does a lot of texting, but I’ve never seen any of his “friends” show up at our door. He seems easily persuaded to hang around with low-achieving kids at school; not the kind of kids we hoped he’d hook up with. He spends his free time, like weekends locked in his room watching TV. His state mandated test scores are skewed- high in some areas and low in others. He’s had various diagnoses through-out his 15-year life, and the most recent was “autistic-like symptoms” by a pediadtric neurologist a few years ago at UCLA. He actually seems to fall into any number of “grey” areas. Again, as mentioned in previous posts, I don’t think that Matt’s symptoms are due to an under-developed cerrebellum, that’s why I’m not sure if he would be Dore’s target group. Matt doesn’t think he has any issues at all; he just thinks he’s lazy, and he is, but he doesn’t realize that there’s more to it thsn that. At the initial evaluation, a doctor said that he thought that Matt could benefit from Dore, so he’s been in it ever since. Maybe he just made this recommendation so that Dore wouldn’t lose a potential client. So, I hope I answered your question. Thanks for your post. Randall

  28. eraina

    randell, no its not FACT!!!! eeek…I did say I was only summising!!! you really need to speak to a programme specialist. Sound like your son has some social and selfesteem issues here (again not fact only going by what you have said!!)do you have access to an ed psych? Im not sure what you have in USA? I have TWO 15 yr old sons so can relate to the teenage bits..but two of my other kids are aldo autistic so can relate to those bits too!!!
    Does he have a school councellor?(ive spelt that wrong eek)perhaps (with you saying nothing turns him on) he is suffering from depression? has this been discussed previously?
    Im sorry Im throwing all these things at you.. maybe this isnt the best place to discuss your sons problems http://www.doretalk.co.uk has a PM system if you prefer xxx

  29. randall

    Hi Eraina. Yes, I think Matt has social and self esteem issues, and he’s probably depressed as well. I’ve actually discussed this with his doctor, and I think he said the depression part is normal and that he’d eventually grow out of it. It’s strange because Matt was an extremely happy little boy. Compared to the boy he is now, you wouldn’t know they were the same person. I don’t know if the issue about his lack of inspiration is depression or not- it might be. We’ve tried to spark his interest during the years: guitar lessons, sports like gymnastics and swimming; boy scouts, backpacking and travel- as you can summise, for a 15-year old, he’s very well-travelled, but that doesn’t inspire him either- he just goes along. Here, Matt is what we call a “home-boy.” I don’t know if you have that expression in the UK. I don’t mind discussing his problems here and I’m glad you can relate to what I’ve written. Anyway, as I said before, Matt doesn’t believe that he has any “problems,” except for lazyness. What is the website adress you wrote to me? Is that some kind of Dore forum, like this one? Oh, and yes, Matt has seen counselors at school and on the outside. He was in Special Education when he was in primary school due to his late specch development, but taken out of the program while in middle school. Now, we’re in the process of trying to get him back into special education, at least to help with his math. Thanks again. I’ve read your other posts. I’m glad that the Dore program has worked for you. Randall

  30. eraina

    The doretalk forum is a support forum for those doing the dore program. I think we all struggled at some point and I wish Id had this forum when we did Dore!
    gawd, Randell, Im all out of answers about your son..hmmm…Dore was what we found worked..I must admit when I look back on my school days I see soooo many signs of dyspraxia its unreal..I too thought I was lazy but I just cant always get it down on paper!!
    I understand about teenage hormones but wouldnt say ‘depression’ was ‘normal’ for a 15 yr old…jeez I hope not I got 4 more kids to get thru the teenage yrs yet!!! Self esteem and social behaviour were on of the last things that changed on the programme… but they did change for the better…I cant help but feel ‘something’ is being missed here with your son…but..I dont know what!! best wishes and good luck, Eraina x

  31. randall

    Eraina- strange coincidence- I was one of the first diagnosed cases of dyslexia in LA, or so I’m told. I don’t think it’s ever been an issue for me nor do I have any signs of dyslexia now. Oh, you wrote “dyspraxia…” sorry- don’t know what that is! I did check out this website. It’s mostly younger Dore kids on it- My son has absolutely no interest in communicating with any of these people. I on the other hand, will probably see if I can make some contacts with some other parents. You have a lot of kids! I thought one 15-year old is a handful! Wow! Good luck! Randall

  32. FrazzleDazzle

    Hi Randall! I just saw your post. My son is also 15, and started on the program in Dec of ’06. He has his completion appointment next week to wrap things up. He was borderline CDD, and the doctor was upfront with me about that. I think doing Dore during the teen years is very difficult, had I known about this when he was 8, I think a lot of his self-esteem and confidence academically would be better. But, we went through it to get as much improvement for him as possible, and I’m glad that we did. I feel for your son, teens are hard anyways. I agree with Eraina too, that 2 months off could be a lot of time off, and those neuropathways have not fully developed yet, they may slip back away. I had also started my son on high-EPA omegas, and he WILL stay on them. They really have helped to regulate the mood swings that go with being a guy this age, have you tried them with your son? They are known for regulating the mood and stabilizing hormones, amongst so many other good things. Your son sounds depressed from what you write, and my heart out to you both.

    Also, has your son started on the mental sets yet? That is when things really start to move. Really, we went a looooong time before seeing anything spectacular, and he will still admit that he doesn’t thing Dore did anything for him, but I am now, just as a few weeks ago (sorry if I already said this) seeing him do things I never thought he would do, like complete a multi-step project and remember all of the tasks to complete it, remember more than one instruction/direction at a time, some of the executive functions are coming in now, loud and clear.

    If either of you would be interested, I do have a blog running of my son doing the program: http://wnscrb.blogspot.com/
    I hope that links for you! feel free to hop on board the Doretalk, at least for yourself, there are a lot of great folks and parents of teens on there too.

    Please let us know of any other ways we can help you with this. 🙂

  33. eraina

    randell, it is more for the parental support, on the forum… frazzles blog shows her son doing his exercises with some really classic funny moments!! When you say ‘the first to be diagnosed’ who do you mean you were diagnosed by? (Im in uk and might have this wrong, but if kids in US are dxd with dyslexia, their diagnosis (dx) is ADHD? or have i got muddled?)
    Anyhoo, Im sure if you join the forum and grab some inspiration for yourself it might help. The exercises were the biggest cause of conflict in our house during the programme…but id do it all again when I have to!!
    yes we have a lot of kids here (15 yr old twins, 10yr old autistic, 9 yr old Dyspraxic, 5 yr old Asperger’s, 4 yr old Dyspraxic) yes we have our hands full fo’ sho’!!!!
    wanna swap??? lol xxx

  34. FrazzleDazzle

    Randall, I was just reminded of something by another Dore mom, who was wanting to see something particular from the program, and that is to have eye contact with her son (have his full attention) when they converse. This is an aspect I had totally forgotten about! When I hear parents say they have not seen any improvements, I think about this. These kinds of results come on so gradually sometimes, and just sneak into daily life that we totally forget the struggles they used to have. We like normal and gravitate toward it, yet when it is here when it was not before, we DO forget that it was not always this way, because our mindset is that it should have been this way all along. Does that make sense?
    Anyways, this mom just reminded me that we had the same struggles that she is hoping to obsolve on the program, that of having eye contact and focused conversation. I had really forgotten about that, gads I used to chase the guy around the room trying to catch his eyes and attention, but we no longer play that game.

    I think that if you look back on some of the frustrations and struggles you both had, you may think of and find some of the same things such as this. They are sooo easy to miss because it is not a night/day thing like taking an ADHD med is like. We get used to improvements without remembering they used to have them!

  35. Tom

    Randall, im so sorry for the problems you are having with your son, and to lose all that money aswell is really bad.

    You will be able to get a refund but you have to kick up a bit of a fight. Dore hate bad publicity most. Write to the local paper near the center and tell them your story, tell them you have been conned (even if you dont think that is what has happenend, I believe it is). Then tell Dore you have done this and you intend to do more.

    I really hope it works out for you.

  36. eraina

    yeah and then , tom, he can say, oh we never completed the programme so we cant really say if it works….*shakes head* honestly Tom you are so ridiculous

  37. FrazzleDazzle

    Randall, I am sorry about the squabbles here. Tom has a personal vendetta against Dore. He/she, Eraina, and I come from another venue where we have attempted to hash out our differences to no avail. I truly hope you are not offended, and do what you feel is best for your son.

  38. randall

    Wow- I’ll try to respond to everyone here- first- Frazzle- Thanks for the blog. I watched it with my son but it didn’t seem to phase him. I also want to check out the epa omegas- on your recommendation. So your son is almost done- great! As far as the neural pathways to the cerebellum- as I said, I’m not sure if that’s what Matt’s issues are- I’m willing to stick with it as long as I can hold out, but Matt fights me every inch of the way. I want to do at least the 15-month period- the average- to see if there’s still no change, we could ask for a refund, but we’re not there yet so I have to keep plowing ahead. As for Tom, will I understand your negativity but I’m still trying to give the program a chance, at least 3 more months. If there’s still no change, I could try your approach. Sorry there’s such a rivalry here- everyone should be on the same page because it’s all in the name of what’s best for our children. Other points- I also wish I had started Matt on this program before his teenage years. It would have been so much easier for everyone. Yes, he’s started on mental tasks, a long time ago- last June I think. I also think he’s depressed, but he doesn’t think so, or at least I’m not sure if he understands what depression is. It’s more like, “why do I have to do these exercises- there’s nothing wrong with me.” to Eraina- I don’t remember who diagnosed me- it was proably 45 years ago. I think the terminology here and in England are different. Here, dyslexia means something like “letter reversal or mirror image” while reading, although, from what I remember, I probably had a strong dose of ADHD as well. It was hard for me to sit still during school. The dyslexia never bothered be, as a matter of fact, I became an English teacher! I’m going to start contributing to the forum cuz I don’t think that this site was intended to be used like this. to Frazzle- I understand what the other Dore mom meant when you mention her story. Eye contact has never been an issue with my son, but I’m aware that “elusive progress” may have been made that I don’t see yet cuz I’m not open to it or I’m not seeing it in the correct light. To Tom- well I hope I wasn’t conned! The person who I signed with ended up resigning a few days later, but she seemed to be slightly disabled herself and lacking in the ability to con someone. On the contrary, she seemed genually concerned and wanted to help, as all the Dore people have been who I’ve worked with at 2 different centers. If I can get through the next few months (the magic 15-month mark) and still see no improvement, I will claim that we finished the program at a 99% compliance level and request a refund. If it doesn’t happen, I may do what you suggest but I hope it doesn’t come to that. In a worse-case scenerio, I would share your vendetta against Dore, but I’d rather just see some progress! Thanks for all your replies! Randy

  39. eraina

    ahh bless Tom doesnt love me anymore *cries*
    Yes come over to the forum Randall. Chris runs a fantastic site here. I wouldnt want to spoil it for him. xx

  40. FrazzleDazzle

    Randall, I have to tell you, when I started Dore with my son, there were no forums anywhere, nothing but a mere comment but no followup comments on the net at all. So, I set out to get a Dore forum going on the largest ADHD forum on the net, because I knew that there were others besides myself that could NOT get through this program without some camaraderie from others, and that has been true. Without having some similar stories to share, discouraging moments, others to lift up and to be lifted up when things were really hard for us, reminders of how things used to be compared to now (those oh yah moments), many of us would have thrown in the towel. Phoenix is a big place, but I know no one personally going through the program here, so the forums have been a true lifesaver.

    Anyway, since then, more forums have popped up, such as DoreTalk, and the Dore yahoo group, and a few others, and have really helped us to understand better the process of Dore, and the months of plodding away with seemingly no change. We also love to brag when there is a little and a big change.

    (Oh, did I tell you the executive functions started coming in on the very week of his completion appointment? I would not have wanted to miss those for the world!)
    Randall, you are officially, invited to the Dore yahoo group by the administrator there, and since it is a private group, you may join through your program adviser if you wish. It is a lovely group, and I hope you check that venue out as well, to at least read (maybe post, you truly are not alone here) and gain some support through this most difficult journey. If you have any troubles, let me know here or on the Doretalk forum, where you can reach me through the private messenger there. I am also FrazzleDazzle there too.

    Best wishes, and keep in touch.

  41. randall

    Frazzle- The Dore Yahoo Group is different from the Doretalk group? What’s the diference? And the program adviser is the person who we see at the follow-ups? Just want to be sure I understand. Since you live in Phoenix and I’m in LA, we can talk on the phone or our sons can talk. I’m just not sure about posting my cell # on the net. I’m off today so I plan to spend some time checking out at least the Doretalk site. Thanks- Randall

  42. eraina

    randall, the doretalk forum has a PM system so you can send a private message no one else can see. NEVER post your email or number on the net!!! I made the mistake of posting it on here (trying to be honest and open so peeps could ask questions) and got totally spammed!!!! lol

  43. FrazzleDazzle

    Eraina is right, don’t publicly post anything personal here!

    Yes, the yahoo group is a private group, only Dore parents and participants are there, and your program adviser is, you are correct, the ones you see at your center. Actually anyone at your center should be able to get you connected.

    Doretalk is public, I understand anyone can sign on and post. I do both, because of the sensitive issues it’s nice to have the private venue too. If your son would like to talk with my son, that would be great! All along he felt pretty isolated and weird about doing it, but was happy if his blog would help other teens know they were not alone in doing this. I’m sure he’d be happy to connect and help out.

    Well, now that all this is public, if our sons would like to connect, maybe we should arrange that through our Dore centers so that not everyone who reads this knows the deal and we all end up connecting with creeps? ugh. so sorry! Here’s what I will do, I will call our advisor and give them a head’s up in case your center calls them, okay?

    Thank you Chris, for allowing us to do this here! :-0

  44. FrazzleDazzle

    Randall, I just got off the phone with our Center, and if she would get a call from your center from you (after they verify your information) they have my permission to pass along my first name and e-mail address so we can all connect if you would like. Have a great day off!
    FrazzleD

  45. randall

    Frazzle- I’ll call Newport Beach right away. I’m only afraid that this may be too late. Matt’s under the impression that after his follow-up next week, he’s finished with Dore. Part of his disability is that he can’t see beyond this. I don’t know how receptive he will be to communicate with your son cuz he hates Dore and he hates the exercises and by extension, he may not go for anything that he perceives as being connected to Dore, including communicating with your son. We’ll just have to give it a shot. In a worse case scenerio, your son may end up being one of his “friends” who he seems to be constanly texting back and forth. We’ll have to see. Randy

  46. FrazzleDazzle

    We are here for ya, Randall, either way. My son was not thrilled with Dore’ing either, I totally understand your son in that as well, and the possible perception of drudgery of being reminded twice a day that there is something that “needs to be fixed.” If you saw his blog, he looks rather depressed as well in the videos! We just plodded on like he has to brush his teeth twice a day and was part of the daily routine for us. We are both glad it’s over though! Keep in touch, Randy.

  47. randall

    Frazzle- Hopefully you’ll hear something tomorrow and we can connect. We did see your son’s blog. He’s a good looking boy! Kind of reminds me what I looked like when I was that age! Randy

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